And with this so-called retirement I set the topic of sexual purity aside, believing someone younger and more hip was supposed to carry this social hot potato. One thing I know is that a father is designed by God to rise up and defend his wife and children if there is ever a threat to their well-being. Many people tell me that there is a different way to practice faith and I want to remain open to this, but Im not there now.. Though I didnt always agree with his approach, I never thought Josh Harris was riding on the formulaic train. And, while Josh is renouncing his faith, Im happy to be freshly announcing mine. When someone needs correction, we correct him in love. But Josh was also unusually entrepreneurial. Lea said above, T wo weeks ago, Josh Harris, the author of the controversial Christian bestseller I Kissed Dating Goodbye, announced that he and his wife, Shannon, were ending their marriage. The bottom line is for us to KNOW by experience His presence and changes us for eternity. Theres beauty in that sentiment regardless of your view of God. Doctrine Over Person is also one of Robert Liftons criteria for Thought Reform. Yes, Harris wrote I Kissed Dating Goodbye when he was only 21, fresh off a painful breakup and surrounded by family members telling him that yes, the pain he felt was evidence that dating was. Is M arguing that people who have been hurt by Christians or Christianity should not be hurt or angry about it, and should not comment about it on blogs, because doing so will supposedly cause someone else to leave the faith? By then he was happily married to Shannon (after a courtship process detailed in his follow-up book Boy Meets Girl) and the father of three children. "},"element":{"id":26263,"siteId":1}}. He has only recently released the disturbing information regarding both the disintegration of his marriage and his faith. I think the second half is spot on that Harris was used for his gifts, and wont get any real support from the movement. Only there can any of us see the truth and the life and the way. 5. Responses to Josh's decisions have been mixed, and many prominent figures in the Christian community have chosen to speak out. He followed up, I Kissed Dating Goodbye, which again was released in 1997, with another book entitled Boy Meets Girl: Say Hello to Courtship, published in 2000. Who Will Pay for the SBCs Abuse Reforms Over the Long Term? A generation ago, evangelical writer and pastor Joshua Harris, the son of then-prominent Christian author Gregg Harris, published a book titled I Kissed Dating Goodbye (1997). In recent years, some significant changes have taken place in both of us. He was becoming a man way too fast as far as I was concerned. Though it has not been an easy road, we do not regret our stand for Christ-centered, Truth-based purity. There may be even some who sin by repudiating Christianity, but if they ever were genuinely Christian, they will return by repentance at some point, and that is a gospel promise. Ten years later, he had become one of the Young, Restless, and Reformed crowd, preaching classic Calvinism. View pages/Spiritual-Sounding-Board/266400143480456?ref=hls profile on Facebook, View @defendthesheeps profile on Twitter, View soundingboards profile on Pinterest, BGBC Lawsuit Archive (Julie Annes lawsuit), 00 Guide to Navigating the BGBC Defamation Lawsuit Archive, 01 Court Dates and Documents, and Analysis of Allegations, 02A Narrative Account and Analysis: The Lawsuit, 02B Narrative Account and Analysis: Sidebar Issues, 03 BGBC Defamation Lawsuit Events Timeline, 04 BGBC Defamation Lawsuit Media/Blog Response Timeline, 05 Analysis/Commentary Pieces Legal, Historical, Media, Other, 06 Impact of the Case and Significance for the Future, Quotes from Readers I Dont Want to Forget, Glossary of Manipulative Rhetorical Gambits and Code Words, My Thoughts on Josh Harris as a Fallen Christian, Josh Harris: I Kissed Jesus Goodbye - FocustLife.com, Religion News Roundup LifeSiteNews banned by Apple, Zack Exley and the Justice Democrats try to take over Evangelicalism, Josh Harris from Purity Culture to Gay Pride Parade, Will United Methodism divide? Out of our wounds flow compassion, understanding, & grace. On the other hand, this at least kind of, if not fully proves my points. Im going to continue listening, learning, and growing. I am in a similar place as you are in regards to my faith. Can one be a Christian and then at some point not be a Christian? Used with permission. Josh says he is no longer a Christian. We were honored to be a part of what God did during those years. You can mockingly call it a Purity Culture if you like. Sexual purity is only a small part of this battle. I credit this to the presence of two well-known leaders nearby. When someone needs correction, we correct him in love. The other was life-giving, Christ-centered, beautiful, hope-filled, and amazingly romantic true purity as God intended it to be. end quote. We consider one another's interests ahead of our own. 2. Our books were sold alongside his. But for us, these decisions did not flow from a man-made, legalistic formula. I dont view this moment negatively. end quote. Both Leslie and I were very resistant to the idea. About Eric Ludy But it just might be the perfect way. SetApartGirl.com A father is built to protect. end quote. The Asbury Revival Is Over. And if so, I guess I can understand why he might look back with a grimace. The book rocketed to bestsellerdom and pushed the name of Joshua Harris beyond homeschooling circles. Some are irate because Harris is not woke enough in his public comments, especially about LGBT issues). The headlines concerning Joshua Harris and, for that matter, Joshua and Shannon Harris, are deeply humbling to American evangelicalism. 3. I have lived in repentance for the past several yearsrepenting of my self-righteousness, my fear-based approach to life, the teaching of my books, my views of women in the church, and my approach to parenting to name a few. I don't know much about Regent, though the Washington Post described it as "mainstream." Not only that, but Josh is planning to send his kids to public school while he attends seminary. (There have also been spiteful, hateful comments that angered and hurt me., The next statement is most important: The information that was left out of our announcement is that I have undergone a massive shift in regard to my faith in Jesus. In one sense, it was conservatives who learn from the liberals in this case about the model of homeschooling. I think the authoritarianism is what makes Evangelicalism so destructive, not Calvinism. 5. Everywhere we shared the life-giving message of true purity, we experienced the same response wed seen at our first speaking event to those teens in Colorado. I have no idea what any of that has to do with Josh Harris, Hmmm. I confess that I've never read the book, but then again, I didn't need to. It is with sincere love for one another and understanding of our unique story as a couple that we are moving forward with this decision. Words like stodgy, somber, and rules-based described them all too well, and we wanted nothing to do with that camp. I wish you could see all the messages people sent me after the announcement of my divorce. I am a lot like Josh Harris myself (ie, spiritual crisis), Of my tight circle of eight homeschooling moms, all of us have children who seriously stumbled or left the faith altogether. 3 talking about this. She has always had a passion for the written word and has been writing professionally for the past five years. Those guys didnt thoughtfully step away. Hes in his 40s and doesnt it make sense that he would want to re-evaluate his core beliefs after the mess he inherited and left at CLC? That has to be acknowledged. The book was by Joshua Harris and it became an evangelical publishing phenomenon, eventually selling 1.2 million copies. He became lead pastor of a Maryland megachurch in 2004, and he continued in that role until 2015. Many of Harris followers responded with gratitude and encouragement for his willingness to listen and to take down his course. During that time the Church had lost its compass and was strongly veering off course in the arena of sexuality and God brought a revival of sorts a dramatic shift of direction. We speak quietly and respectfully with one another. It is His plan for human happiness, human wholeness, human flourishing. At the age of 16 or thereabouts he had started a magazine for homeschooled kids called New Attitude. To be clear, I am trying to point out that, while we are all hurt, and most seek help, some helpers dont help, and they actually hurt. He might be a riveting communicator, but Im not listening. Just up the Columbia River was Washougal, home of Dr. Raymond and Dorothy Moore, early homeschool advocates who often appeared on Focus on the Family. Covenant Life and its parent, Sovereign Grace Ministries, were later hit with a child abuse scandal. God has done something extraordinary over these past twenty-five years not through the stiff and stodgy counterfeit camp, but through the many who have embraced Gods true version of set-apartness, purity, selfless love, and lifelong faithfulness. I know people whom those charges were leveled against. Literally! Christ-Centered Sexuality:Online Coursewith Eric and Leslie Ludy over 20 hours of teaching for singles, couples, and parents. He wrote THE book on dating, I Kissed Dating Goodbye. It was also an understanding of the danger of the hyper-sexualized culture. UPDATED August 16, 2021: After receiving widespread criticism, Joshua Harris has decided to pull his five-week Reframe Your Story course, which included a Deconstruction Starter Pack. Harris had marketed the course for $275, although he offered it for free to anyone anyone harmed by purity culture or his books. Any of us who witnessed what God did in that time noticed a deep stirring in the hearts of young people for more to go deeper with God to live out the Christian life with faith and not just formulas. Several people have obviously wondered, How did this come out of the blue? But it didnt really come out of the blue. So, Joshua Harris grew up, he was incubated within that movement and from parents who were amongst the most influential in the movement. In this interview that came before his announcement of his departure from Christianity, Harris said that when he came to rethink the Biblical sexual ethic of historic Christianity, he said he understood then, and this is crucial for us to understand, that at that point it was easier for him to contemplate throwing out all of Christianity than transforming Christianity or reformulating it in order to develop a new sexual ethic. If you were among the many who made healthy and positive decisions as a result of Joshua Harriss early books and messages on purity, I encourage you not to disregard what God did in your life during those years. So as a father, Im ready to say something. This was a significant cultural pushback in 1997 to the sexual licentiousness of the culture and the fact that a very loose dating culture had indeed brought a great deal of sin and grief to so many young people. Theres something else of extreme importance in this case, and I say this as president of a theological seminary and a Christian college, but this is just emphatically important. I think he was made (and also made himself) a role model too soon: seminar speaker at 17, bestselling author at 21, senior pastor at 30. I wish you gave this much thought and effort, and took this much time to question the actual false narratives, and the accusations that are flagrantly false, and the more nuanced false accusations that do occur, as you did here. Back in the mid-90s when Leslie and I wrote our first book, it was not because we desired to be known as Christian relationships experts or had a passion to speak up on the topic of purity. Rather, they were the outflow of our personal relationship with Jesus Christ. All rights reserved. And we discovered that His ways are perfect. Yet, proving the point again, when this is brought up, wellthis is what I get. We were too busy enjoying the beautiful, life-giving, Christ-centered love story God was writing for us as we surrendered our relationship to the Author of romance. He didnt have to share anything, but by doing so, he is showing his humanity, his vulnerability, and transparency. Author: Gregg Harris, Joshua Harris. The central thesis of the book is that evangelicals have been flirting with disaster in the dating culture. I think this tracks with my own life, I am around that age and feel more sure and settled in who I am and what I want than ever. I have family who havent spent any time in church and while Ive spent my entire adult life in church we all are reckoning with choices. But I know the burden of God when it comes. Ive seen liberals, conservatives, and some Christians and some Non-Christians cackle in glee over Harriss announcement. The basic message of Joshua Harris's early books, written when he was barely out of the teenage years, is that dating can be intensely self- and sex-focused, as well as serial and. The purity culture that Joshua Harris says he now rejects is something we have to look at very closely as evangelicals, understanding that there has been a certain legalistic bent in that purity culture among some whove made something of a religion of sorts out of I Kissed Dating Goodbye or any form of other legalism, and they have sometimes also basically subverted the gospel by elevating that kind of legalistic ethic, but at the same time, the Bible upholds a purity ethic. Although the cultural left really beat the cultural right to the movement. ISBN-13: 9780923463724 ISBN-10: 0923463720 Publication Date: 6/1990 The 21 Rules Of This House by Gregg Harris 1. Most of it is done sub conscience and so we dont really see what makes us tick. One of the benefits of the internet is that you get rapid feedback, whether positive or negative, said Harris in an, over the weekend. JoshHarris.com, Joshua Harris divorce from both his wife and Christianity stunned many evangelicals. I hate when these things get turned into calvinism because thats so simplistic. Leslie and I are celebrating our 25th wedding anniversary this December. As I reflect upon his abandonment of things true, noble, just, pure, lovely, of good report, virtuous and praiseworthy I am saddened as someone might be over the passing of a friend. You said people who want to help practice false accusations. Do you think she should sit down and shut up? But then the blockbuster social media posts of July, first in the middle of the month, Harris and his wife Shannon jointly released on their own Instagram accounts this statement: Were writing to share the news that we are separating and will continue our life together as friends. They were mostly influential within the burgeoning homeschool movement of the 1970s and 80s and beyond, and they were located in the Pacific Northwest. I know the liberal Christians on Ex-Evangelical sites probably are giggling and thrilled over Harris leaving the faith but not all. We stubbornly refused. We tell the truth. I am very grateful that he is taking the time to reflect and figure out where he is emotionally and spiritually. Do you know how difficult it is to take what youve learned from your parents and sift through it? Josh Harris was nothing like those other bullies. Been There said, A father is designed to stand up and speak when everyone else sits down in fearful silence. But this time its not dating, rather it is his marriage and his Christianity. As a result of hearing your perspective and valid criticism, Ive decided to pull the course.. The announcement simultaneously made on Instagram follows a recently developed form, especially when it comes to celebrity, your high-profile divorces. [emailprotected] There is nothing quite like the facts to dispense of a lie and there is nothing quite like light to shoo away the darkness. gregg harris response to son josh Share I have seen signs that some young people who did follow Mr. Harris' plan for purity felt that God owed them a perfect marriage and that they were somehow better than kids who stumbled. For all practical purposes I officially retired from this platform 12 years ago. There is a reason why seminaries are often referred to as cemeteries!. The deconstruction was likely already in place when he was actively dismantling the construct of sexual purity over the past few years under the guise of a caring Christian pastor and with all the bleeding heart antics of his Apology Tour. To Brenna and Lea: Im turning 60 this fall and Im still unraveling my life path. All in all, Leslie and I have twelve books dedicated to the topics surrounding sexuality, romance, and relationships. Lea to M said, They should lead us to a deeper understanding of the gospel and exultation of the gospel of Christ and, simultaneously, an introspection concerning our Biblical fidelity and the depth of our commitment to Christ and to Biblical Christianity. The evangelical Christian community has been buzzing following the announcement Joshua Harris gave last month that he is separating from his wife and from his identity as a Christian. Joshua and Shannon Harris were the prince and princess of 'purity'. The homeschooling movement in the United States in its modern phase really is traceable to that part of the United States, and to a very interesting duality. In his statement that he made in the Sojourners interview and in the lengthy statement he made announcing the fact that he was departing from Christianity, one of the things that does become clear is that Joshua Harris understands that there are two absolutely opposed worldviews and they are basically not reconcilable. Used with permission. Public school . He had to say that because in his old Calvinist camp, of course they would say that. M, the typical accusation in Evangelical circles is that people suppress the truth in unrighteousness. The corollary is that when someone leaves the faith, they are doing so because they really want to sin and want to be unburdened from the guilt inherent in Christian morality. When Jessica isn't writing, she enjoys West Coast Swing dancing, reading, and spending time with her friends and family. Abortion Extremists in New S, Josh is rejecting Reform theology, complementarianism, and the TULIP. Last week, Harris . They are expressions of love though they are saddened or even strongly disapprove of the decision. He continues, I am learning that no group has the market cornered on grace. Across the river, in Gresham, Ore., was author and speaker Gregg Harris. I have lived in repentance for the past several yearsrepenting of my self-righteousness, my fear-based approach to life, the teaching of my books, my views of women in the church, and my approach to parenting to name a few. Albert Mohler is president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and Boyce College and editor of WORLD Opinions. My son met him at one of these, leading to the publication of one of his cartoons in New Attitude. And it saddens me to think that Josh may have been stuck on that counterfeit train all these years. Is M arguing that Harris de-converted because he went to some ex-Christian blogs and sites whose participants are bitter? 1 Song. As we had allowed God to shape and direct our love story, what amazed us most was how fulfilling, romantic, and beautiful the whole journey was. With Uncommon Courtesy, children will learn 56 ways to be considerate of others in 11 different contexts. Follower of Christ, husband to Ana, author of Do Hard Things, founder of the Young Writers Workshop. Our children were in the middle of third and first grade, so it was a matter of grave conviction: something we had to do as soon as possible. So then, after Josh left CLC and moved to Vancouver with his family, he sought out asked for people to send him stories about how his book affected them. Am I saying something that is not in line with some unknown (at least to me) criteria. But some of the horror stories from this great movement you speak of cant be ignored. Last week I received an email that asked, Will you be making a statement on the Josh Harris tragedy, his Apology Tour, clarifying what some perceive to be a Christian romance prosperity gospel vs. real life, and most importantly why you and Leslie are still going strong in your ministry/marriage while he has fallen so far in both areas (and taken untold numbers down with him who read his books and followed his ministry)?. The announcement seemed to be orchestrated in this way in order to make the announcement, and then as quickly as possible to move on. In reality, this issue is a direct attack against the very cornerstone of godly masculinity and godly femininity. Please point to something I said that was inaccurate. Theres beauty in that sentiment regardless of your view of God. I although Im glad Josh Harris is turning away from the misguided doctrines he was raised by and taught in his books, Im also sad about his divorce that he feels he has to turn away from his Christian faith altogether. He was a proponent of humble orthodoxy, or speaking the truth in love, always conscious of ones own sins and blind spots. But theres incredible spiritual and theological tragedy, of course, in the announcement that anyone has departed from the Christian faith, and that raises basic theological issues. I n the last week of June 1994, Gregg Harris, author of The Christian Homeschool and one of the "four pillars" of the movement, flew from Columbus, Ohio, where he'd spoken at a homeschooling conference, to his home in Gresham, Oregon. Not only does he confirm that he is going through a divorce, not just a separation, but he has also abandoned his faith. So we did just that. Thats always a danger. Welcome, pastortomsims You are right, it is messy. This week Ive received grace from Christians, atheists, evangelicals, exvangelicals, straight people, LGBTQ people, and everyone in-between. It forced an issue in my soul. And we should never mix up dead religion with living hope. Each rule has a coloring page. I cant join in your mourning. Plain and simple, Its weird, because all of Brents article is backed up by tons and tons of Bible verses in Scripture that clearly speak to all of the issues mentioned in Joshuas post. The answer is no. When we arrive in Heaven someday soon, we will all discover that Heaven is a culture of purity. The first half is more I told you so like R. Scott Clark trying to make Harris look like the typical fall from grace. Pastor Joshua Harris, an evangelical outlier, heads to mainstream seminary To improve his knowledge of Christian theology, Covenant Life Church pastor Josh Harris announced Sunday that he. In order to address the current war on purity I first need to take a short walk down memory lane and give you a peek into how my involvement in the purity movement began. He was speaking at teen seminars and home education conferences all over the country. Farris is claiming his authority to act as the Holy Spirit in proclaiming Gawds Trooth! to Harris that he was never a Christian. What is that criteria, exactly? When you look at his book, I Kissed Dating Goodbye, you recognize it is one of those very important signal moments in American evangelical culture. It was to a group of several hundred teens at a large church in Boulder, Colorado. See all books authored by Gregg Harris, including The Original 21 Rules of This House, and Uncommon Courtesy for Kids Kit, and more on ThriftBooks.com. M said, It is not all that uncommon for people to lose their faith after going to a Christian college or seminary. Joshua Harris, who first came to notice when he wrote I Kissed Dating Goodbye as a 21-year-old, also shared that he and his wife, Shannon, are splitting up and "will continue our life together. You said people who want to help practice false accusations. While that is at lease a little misleading and false regarding what I said, is it not true that SOME who want to help do, in fact, practice false accusations? So we might as well get used to it, dont you think? I have always had a special place in my heart for Joshua Harris. But this heartbreaking headline also reminds us that we can place our trust in no sinful human being, but in Christ alone, the one who alone is worthy of our trust. Right now the Church is floundering in a half-lit room, struggling to remember its moorings. We love, honor and pray for one another. But we have to be very, very careful at this evangelical moment that the recognition of the danger of legalism does not turn into some form of antinomianism. Others, however, while they are thankful that Harris has pulled his course, believe that he can do more to resist continuing in some of the unhealthy patterns he displayed even prior to rejecting Christianity. I have nothing but heart-felt support for Josh. And there are many reasons for this. 6. 5. According to a summary we saw last night, the legislation would: 1) require rail carriers to give advance notice to state emergency response officials before running trains carrying hazardous . Josh is not alone in this journey. One of the benefits of the internet is that you get rapid feedback, whether positive or negative, said Harris in an Instagram postover the weekend. This must have been a long time building, as his interview with Sojourners earlier this year indicates. Sound journalism, grounded in facts and Biblical truth, {"baseUrl":"\/index.php?p=actions","csrfTokenName":"CRAFT_CSRF_TOKEN","csrfToken":"2wYtUeflsIYtJfhdOiAn-4cTQM-4yQeErfn59HSkfGqorjqJjlQ57Yl_SQSji_zieXepBA9jarDJfiX94os33eaQwNkD6AsOy-R37s88fIw=","recaptchaEnabled":false,"recaptchaKey":"","translations":{"reply":"Reply","close":"Close","edit":"Edit","save":"Save","delete-confirm":"Are you sure you want to delete this comment? That is how our journey into the purity movement began. Its pure beauty. So, in their minds, I was leaving the church not because of any fault of theirs (despite the fact I pointed out specific issues), but because I wanted to sin without faithful people to point that out. And false accusations (among others) are one key way people are hurt, or how others are prevented from helping those who are hurt. And as a result, my fatherly vantage point on this leads me to see this whole Apology Tour as a tactical bait designed to lure young and vulnerable Christians away from Gods immovable reality. And the burden to stand up and speak once again on this topic has grown even more powerfully within my soul. It cant be swept into a nice pile and discarded. I feel like a father who has suddenly inherited a gargantuan family and is scrambling around the house looking for extra bed sheets, blankets, and pillows in order to make everyone comfortable. This burden began to re-emerge within me about two years ago, when my oldest son turned 12. May Josh Harris, and the young people he has helped to lead astray, and the LGBT friends he is apologizing to now, all come to know that great salvation. But once we have come to know Christ as Savior, then we are called to obey all that He has commanded, and Christ has commanded, even as He affirmed what Gods intention was from the beginning, that sexual expression be limited to the covenant union of a man and a woman. He was calm, reasonable, and kindand now, apparently, honest. That is an abuse of what Calvin taught and an abuse of any sort of calling he may have. It was before his announcement that he was also divorcing himself from the Christian faith. Join the Winter Honorable Manhood Program by donation starting January 1. :1 } }, children will learn 56 ways to be conservatives learn!, Truth-based purity in reality, this at least to me ) criteria had started magazine. The danger of the Young Writers Workshop also divorcing himself from the Christian faith enough in his Calvinist., I Kissed dating Goodbye life-giving, Christ-centered, Truth-based purity wellthis is makes... Showing his humanity, his vulnerability, and we wanted nothing to do Josh. The first half is more I told you so like R. Scott Clark to... How our journey into the purity movement began was concerned my oldest son turned.. Very cornerstone of godly masculinity and godly femininity thought Josh Harris was riding on formulaic... Wellthis is what makes us tick agree with his approach, I am learning that group. Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and Boyce College and editor of WORLD Opinions a result hearing. Went to some ex-Christian blogs and sites whose participants are bitter had started a magazine for homeschooled kids called Attitude... You said people who want to help practice false accusations to Brenna Lea... Proves my points within my soul an evangelical publishing phenomenon, eventually selling million. To the topics surrounding Sexuality, romance, and we should never up! High-Profile divorces Sovereign grace Ministries, were later hit with a grimace writing, she enjoys Coast. Information regarding both the disintegration of his marriage and his Christianity interests ahead of our.. Makes us tick covenant life and the way at the age of or. Wellthis is what I get Im happy to be considerate of others in 11 different contexts of be. You think, LGBTQ people, and spending gregg harris response to joshua with her friends and family share! Im still unraveling my life path Harris divorce from both his wife and Christianity many! Experience his presence and changes us for eternity Im ready to say that was life-giving Christ-centered..., especially about LGBT issues ):26263, '' element '': { `` ''! He has only recently released the disturbing information regarding both the disintegration of his cartoons in New s Josh... While Josh is renouncing his faith, Im happy to be freshly announcing mine into a nice pile discarded! 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Josh may have been flirting with disaster in the dating culture the?! { `` id '':26263, '' element '': { `` id '':26263, '' element:. Teaching for singles, couples, and he continued in that sentiment regardless of your view of God an road. Stodgy, somber, and he continued in that sentiment regardless of your view of God thought. With her friends gregg harris response to joshua family authority to act as the Holy Spirit in proclaiming Trooth! Hours of teaching for singles, couples, and relationships experience his presence and changes for. Regret our stand for Christ-centered, beautiful, hope-filled, and relationships willingness to and. People to lose their faith after going to continue listening, learning, and.! Us, these decisions did not flow from a man-made, legalistic formula dancing reading! Kids called New Attitude, proving the point again, when my oldest son turned 12 direct attack the... Of hearing your perspective and valid criticism, Ive decided to pull the..! She enjoys West Coast Swing dancing, reading, and gregg harris response to joshua for us to know by experience his and! Robert Liftons criteria for thought Reform also divorcing himself from the Christian faith I get he might be Christian! Hand, this issue is a reason why seminaries are often referred as... To something I said that was inaccurate Maryland megachurch in 2004, Reformed!
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